There are three players in my regular game who would try garbage like this.Myself, I'd put up with that once. The same holds true for any behavior (at the game) that is actively and intentionally detracting from the fun of others. After the session, I'd talk to the player(s) involved. If it happened again (in an unreasonably short amount of time, and without exceptional mitigating circumstances) they'd be out of my game.
Maybe I just need better players. But then, we've had this discussion before...
To be clear, I'm not advocating booting someone the second time they have a problem. Part and parcel of friendship is supporting people while they learn and grow. What I am saying is that if someone has poor behavior, which has been pointed out to them repeatedly, and yet they make no efforts to correct it, then they don't deserve to game with you.
This is a recurring theme here at Transitive Gaming, because I've seen it happen at campaign after campaign while I was running the game store. Hundreds of RPGA sessions, dozens of campaigns in the Active Imagination gameroom. Nobody wants to be the bad guy, and so they let someone else be a jerk, a cheater, a rules-lawyer, and/or a spotlight hog. Feeling uncomfortable, the good players slowly go AWOL as the game collapses under the weight of the munchkins. If and when the GM finds the courage to put his foot down and say "my standards are higher," everything gets better - and it's amazing how fast that can happen if you're firm.
By holding someone accountable for their poor manners and munchkinism, you provide an opportunity for them to improve themselves. Coddling them, or pretending not to notice the wretched things they do, actively encourages further bad behavior. Every time you raise the bar, gamers everywhere get incrementally better. Every time you put up with outrageous crap, you actively slow the global progress that others are working towards.
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The corollary to this, which I've voiced previously here and elsewhere, goes as such:
This ain't the 80's. We live in a time where gamers are plentiful. If your city has two or more game/comic stores, you can rest assured there's gamers waiting in the wings for a new campaign.
Even with one or no such stores in your town, the gamers are probably there, it's just harder to find them. You may have to switch systems or be creative in where you look, but players abound.
Therefore, we (gamers, as a social class) no longer have to pander to the lowest common denominator. We can set our goals high, and have reasonable expectations of achievement.
Interesting.
I see now that this is similar to most matters of social grace (or lack thereof).
Yell at someone for throwing their cigarette butt on the ground, and you're likely to make an enemy. ...But that person is also likely to think twice about it the next time.
Complain to your husband that he's always leaving the dirty dishes on the table, and you've got a fight on your hands. ...But he'll probably put the dish away next time.
I see (and accept) the point.
But in all these cases, there is a cost. (Namely, harming a relationship with the offender.)
It's not a cost I am willing to pay. Period. [shrug] Just a personal choice? I think so. ...The way I see it, who cares? Okay, I'm not playing in Magic tournaments, where money/reputation is at stake. I'm not a gamist, I don't go to such things, don't like those crowds. But when I'm role-playing, in every game I have ever or am currently in, except two, I have seen or strongly suspected cheating.
Because these were role-playing games, my attitude has been to shrug, be a little disappointed, and move on... Again: so what if some of the players are uncomfortable with bad rolls? They want an easier game. I can understand that.
The two expections: first was your Amber game. There are no dice and thus no cheating. Problem solved. ...That said, Rob dancing on the pattern should never have flown. ; )
Second case is my current FATE game... and there's no cheating there for a similar reason: the characters are absurdly over-powered, so there's no need. The game is easy.
People cheat because they enjoy doing well.
My answer to that is to give them a game they enjoy without needing to cheat. ...That's my take on the problem, anyway.
But that's almost certainly because I'm a social wimp and cannot stand up to people. :)
That cost can be mitigated by way you address the issue. Yelling is a bad choice, and doing things in front of the other players makes otherwise tolerable situations worse.
Also, if it's a person you only interact with at the gaming table, and such interactions are unpleasant, then what is showing them the door costing you? A few minutes of tension?
I should mention, though, that this ostracism is something only the GM should tackle. Forcing it on a group may result in a popularity contest, which could go poorly if you aren't the thing the group can least go without.
As a player, you should however tell the GM about the cheating you suspect is happening. Do so politely, and away from the group. Mention it once, but don't mince words. Present your evidence, then don't bring it up again unless new evidence surfaces. If the GM doesn't believe you, let it rest. If the GM believes but doesn't care, find a new GM.
Looking back at my recent CP2020 post, the apology I gave wasn't because I accused another player of cheating. The apology was due because I wouldn't shut up about it, yet never had any evidence to back it up. In short, the way I chose to address the issue was the mistake.
That said, Rob dancing on the pattern should never have flown. ; )
Hey - I had him get sucked up by the vortex! Many people think the big death that comes from dicking with the pattern is part of the setting.
It's not in the first 5 books - it's purely from the Merlin saga, which is (say it with me) NOT CANNON!
Seriously, though, I acknowledge that I should have smacked down on him. Players often take the pattern way too flippantly, and in a long-term campaign NOT killing him would have been a mistake.
That said, in this short-term game, I didn't want to kill him. At that point, I felt the solution to the whole scenario was so freakin' obvious you guys would "get it" at any moment and wrap up in a session and a half. If I killed him, then he'd have to make a new character, and that introduction would just slow things down.
Also, if it's a person you only interact with at the gaming table, and such interactions are unpleasant, then what is showing them the door costing you? A few minutes of tension?
A few minutes? Really? Could you really kick someone out of a game and not brood about it for hours? Would it not lead to a big discussion with the other players? Would there not be talking about it behind your back?
No, it's not just a few minutes. You're telling someone you find them in moral contempt. That's huge, and not something to be trifled with. ...And, frankly, not something I'm capable of.
In fact, the only scenario I can imagine where I would be able to bring it up is with a very close friend... a relationship that I knew could take the hit.
Nope, I just can't take relationships that lightly.
...As for the Rob-on-the-pattern thing, I was really joking. :) I fully agreed with (and enjoyed) the actions you took. Really: it was just a joke. :)
I do have a bunch of comments on that game, now. But I'll send those in email: they seem off-topic here. ;)
Pursuing and documenting a cheating incident from Investigation to Disqualification at and after a Magic Pro-Tour Qualifier is a lot of work.
Taking an RPG player aside as he's leaving for the night and saying "If you're planning to do that again next week, don't come back" is a lot easier.
I've done it several times. Probably they talk about me behind my back - I just don't care.
The other players (the ones who did get invited back) have always thanked me for it later.
I've only ever booted someone who was a serious detriment to the game. I've only done so the boot in person, alone, and as they left for the night. No emotion, minimal stress. I'm 4 for 4, and have no regrets in that regards.
But I do regret the 3 or 4 people before that whom I should have booted when I lacked the courage to do so - all eventually drove better players away with their odious habits and munchkinism.
Having read the above comments and thought on it, I realized that r_b_bergstrom is right. I'm sending off some e-mails tonight to some problem players. They can either shape up and honor the social contract or they can game somewhere else.
It makes me concerned about next session, because there may be conflict at the table over it, and because main characters may quit mid-adventure here. However, I think it's high time I either stand up for my game or simply stop DMing entirely.
when I was in high school (keep in mind, high school boys here), the DM was clearly irritated with one player's goof-off-ishness, and the rest of us were annoyed too. The DM, however, didn't kick the person out or ask them to leave.
Because we were low-level characters and unsophisticated players, we died, a lot, and were resurrected with rings, spells, I don't remember. Kinda like playing WoW. We had a player revolt. Ironhead Hormone (that was the PCs name -- high school boys, I told you!) died during a battle and the rest of the player group stripped his corpse and left him in a trunk. Because he had been annoying, he didn't really mind, and stopped coming when he found we weren't going to invite him to roll a new character.
I'm sending off some e-mails tonight to some problem players.
I wouldn't do it by email, dude, unless your intention is to never talk to them again. YMMV, but my experience is that people don't respond well to being told off via email by someone who could have done a face to face.
Your call, of course, but I'd do it in person.
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